From: Jane Cfitizen (citizenjane@hotmail.com)
Date: Tue May 21 2002 - 05:41:20 MDT
Matt wrote among other things....
> As cultures mature, people tend to become more aware. So in an immature
This, I think, is bullshit. What is meant by becoming aware is nothing more
than a culture evolving, or rather devolving as they mix nowadays, values
change, power stages change, labour shifts, lifestyles change too (see also
Kharins comments below). Becoming aware implies some transcendental
universal state, which exists in another world. Come on! Awareness?, As
some countries become aware of labour or voting rights, other countries are
less aware of environmental or social issues. Look at the problems of
democratising third world countries.
But even Kharin cannot make any sense of how upper classe debauchery had
anything to do with the introduction of a free market, or how either had
anything to do with imitation of the lower class.
Immaturity of culture? Again presupposing some level to compare with.
Sounds like a dominant paradigm talking.
How mature is western culture?
There is another theory about that theory....it suggests that when things
are tight, the seasons wrong, the pests abounding or a war is fought and
rations run, phew, then it doesn;t look so good to flaunt excess. That sort
of attitude begs trouble or begs judicial help.
> Subject: Re:virus: Re: [Upstream] Help with a memetic fragment
>
> I suspect that a study of the memetics of 'decline and fall' would be a
fascinating one. This one looks to me like a variant of Freud's Civilisation
and its Discontents, wherein civilisation is viewed as being predicated on
the suppression of disruptive instincts. As I seem to recall Slavoj Zizek
suggested, this model also applied quite well in certain contexts. For
example, as Mikhail Gorbachev slightly loosened Societ state restrictions
the structure of that state beagn to unravel. Conversely, the liberalising
of restrictions in capitalist states tended to have the opposite effect;
free markets find it difficult to operate outside a free society. One
example might be the "surrender to a sense of promiscuity" that one of the
articles mentions. This is typically linked to declining public morals and a
dying civil society. An alternative way to look at it was that behaviour of
that kind had always been practised by elites (something that Toynbee's
model doesn't seem to accoun!
> t for since it requires them to be role models), and that the presence of
greater social mobility (i.e. less stratified income distribution) meant
that it was inevitable that aristocratic debauchery would also become more
widespread. Which hardly seems to indicate social collapse - quite the
contrary.
>
> To apply that to the original discussion, it shouldn't be difficult to
observe how the idea of elite imitation of the underclass would appear to
mainfest itself as a threat within a predominantly aristocratic value
system, but it is difficult to see how any modern free market society could
actually function without the kind of social mobility that that suggests.
Again, it may not be accidental that the only modern state that was able to
maintain creative minority standards in 'arts, manners and language' was the
Soviet Union. My guess is that according to Toynbee's theories, the Societ
Union should have been a much more robust society than the US. The fact that
it was not calls a great deal of this Mary Whitehouse-style obsessive
theorising over decline into question.
>
> - ----
> This message was posted by kharin to the Virus 2002 board on Church of
Virus BBS.
>
<http://virus.lucifer.com/bbs/index.php?board=51;action=display;threadid=254
50>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Date: Fri, 3 May 2002 08:34:51 -0600
> From: "kharin" <hidden@lucifer.com>
> Subject: Re:virus: Help with a memetic fragment
>
> Stagnation was the rule, before the invasions began
> which plunged Europe into the dark ages.
>
> In evolutionary terms, diversity (i.e. having a broad memetic repetoire)
is a useful basis for adaptation. Niche specialism is frequently a good
basis for extrinction.
>
> - ----
> This message was posted by kharin to the Virus 2002 board on Church of
Virus BBS.
>
<http://virus.lucifer.com/bbs/index.php?board=51;action=display;threadid=254
46>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Date: Fri, 3 May 2002 10:54:41 -0600
> From: "Hermit" <hidden@lucifer.com>
> Subject: Re:virus: Re: [Upstream] Help with a memetic fragment
>
> I'd differ. It seemed fairly clear to me that Toynbee predicated advanced
societies as being resource hungry - and he undoubtedly recognized that
resources came in many forms (see e.g. his works on the mercantile
principalities of the late renaissance. Following Toynbee's model (and I
would tend to agree), the USSR failed only when it had run out of reasonably
accessible resources. This suggests that had the US had similar constraints,
it would have failed in the same way. And this does of course, remain a
possibility while we remain locked into an energy constrained mixed
agrarian/industrial resource base.
>
> Another good reason to transform the world ASAP.
>
> Kind Regards
>
> Hermit
>
>
>
> - ----
> This message was posted by Hermit to the Virus 2002 board on Church of
Virus BBS.
>
<http://virus.lucifer.com/bbs/index.php?board=51;action=display;threadid=254
50>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Date: Fri, 3 May 2002 16:35:00 EDT
> From: Loki100l00@aol.com
> Subject: virus: We 13
>
> - --part1_109.11e17c46.2a044e74_boundary
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"
> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
>
> Does anyone remember them?
>
> - -J
>
> - --part1_109.11e17c46.2a044e74_boundary
> Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII"
> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
>
> <HTML><FONT FACE=arial,helvetica><FONT SIZE=2>Does anyone remember them?
> <BR>
> <BR>-J</FONT></HTML>
>
> - --part1_109.11e17c46.2a044e74_boundary--
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Date: Fri, 3 May 2002 16:35:00 EDT
> From: Loki100l00@aol.com
> Subject: virus: We 13
>
> - --part1_109.11e17c46.2a044e74_boundary
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"
> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
>
> Does anyone remember them?
>
> - -J
>
> - --part1_109.11e17c46.2a044e74_boundary
> Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII"
> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
>
> <HTML><FONT FACE=arial,helvetica><FONT SIZE=2>Does anyone remember them?
> <BR>
> <BR>-J</FONT></HTML>
>
> - --part1_109.11e17c46.2a044e74_boundary--
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Date: Fri, 3 May 2002 17:51:32 -0600
> From: "rhinoceros" <rhinoceros@freemail.gr>
> Subject: Re:virus: Re: [Upstream] Help with a memetic fragment
>
> Although I am not a fan of Toynbee's theory, I'll have to give it a try.
>
> It is natural that Toynbees theory can explain the fall of the Roman
Empire, because the theory itself was built on the history of the Roman
Empire.
>
> Regarding the fall of the Soviet Union, things get more complicated. When
a theory has to encompass something new, it may have to be adapted, and its
focus shifted. In Toynbee's scheme, we could simply replace the "elite" of
the Romans with the communist party of Lenin, and the "barbarians" of the
Romans with the party bureaucracy, which was eventually alienated to the
people. Then, a new "elite" emerged, mainly from the "smartest" people,
which were mainly the black marketers and some of the party bureaucrats in a
new role.
>
> Of course, I realize that I am trying to fit some of my personal
perceptions into Toynbee's theory, but I think that is what everyone is
doing.
>
> Abundance of resourses could be a final solution to all our "big"
problems, but I would not bet on it. It is possible that it would lead to
new problems of distribution and authority. Maybe we'll just have to wait
and see, because it has never happened before. Are there any historical
examples of societies of abundance?
>
> Now, about the higher classes imitating the lower classes during a period
of social decline... while I would not adopt this idea, it seems to have
some potential for serious jokes. Except jeans, beards, and slang language,
there is also theft and murder, although at a higher level.
>
>
> - ----
> This message was posted by rhinoceros to the Virus 2002 board on Church of
Virus BBS.
>
<http://virus.lucifer.com/bbs/index.php?board=51;action=display;threadid=254
50>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Date: Fri, 03 May 2002 19:58:29 -0700
> From: "Douglas P. Wilson" <dp-wilson@shaw.ca>
> Subject: Re: virus: We 13
>
> > Subject: virus: We 13
>
> > Does anyone remember them?
>
> I don't. Do you mean the astronauts? Then maybe I do.
> What 13?
>
> dpw
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Date: Fri, 3 May 2002 18:10:23 +0100
> From: "Jonathan Davis" <jonathan@limbicnutrition.com>
> Subject: virus: Neodeism
>
> Came across this whilst researching Toynbee.
>
> http://www.angelfire.com/ma/karlek/neodeism/nd00.html
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Date: Sat, 4 May 2002 00:49:30 EDT
> From: Loki100l00@aol.com
> Subject: Re: virus: We 13
>
> - --part1_192.687ba82.2a04c25a_boundary
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"
> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
>
> In a message dated 5/3/2002 10:03:54 PM Central Daylight Time,
> dp-wilson@shaw.ca writes:
>
>
> > > Subject: virus: We 13
> >
> > > Does anyone remember them?
> >
> > I don't. Do you mean the astronauts? Then maybe I do.
> > What 13?
> >
> > dpw
> >
> >
> >
>
> Don't worry. The message obviously did not apply to you. But thanks for
> your enthusiasm in responding. We may have more to say in the future.
>
> - -J
>
> - --part1_192.687ba82.2a04c25a_boundary
> Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII"
> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
>
> <HTML><FONT FACE=arial,helvetica><FONT SIZE=2>In a message dated 5/3/2002
10:03:54 PM Central Daylight Time, dp-wilson@shaw.ca writes:
> <BR>
> <BR>
> <BR><BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=CITE style="BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid;
MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px">> Subject:
virus: We 13
> <BR>
> <BR>> Does anyone remember them?
> <BR>
> <BR>I don't. Do you mean the astronauts? Then maybe I do.
> <BR>What 13?
> <BR>
> <BR> dpw
> <BR>
> <BR>
> <BR></FONT><FONT COLOR="#000000" SIZE=3 FAMILY="SANSSERIF" FACE="Arial"
LANG="0"></BLOCKQUOTE>
> <BR></FONT><FONT COLOR="#000000" SIZE=2 FAMILY="SANSSERIF" FACE="Arial"
LANG="0">
> <BR>Don't worry. The message obviously did not apply to you.
But thanks for your enthusiasm in responding. We may have more
to say in the future.
> <BR>
> <BR>-J</FONT></HTML>
>
> - --part1_192.687ba82.2a04c25a_boundary--
>
> ------------------------------
>
> End of virus-digest V8 #117
> ***************************
>
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