From: Mermaid . (britannica@hotmail.com)
Date: Wed Feb 27 2002 - 20:31:24 MST
[Hermit] Let us not forget that this all started with my saying, "[Hermit]
Traditionally milk would have been chilled (while breeding bacteria) and
separated before being used. And if not pasteurized and homogenized milk
sours in a day (or why ghee is popular in a certain warm country lacking in
refrigeration facilities and having a vast excess of cows) - which would
greatly increase consumption, and lead to more cows being required."
[Mermaid]Not true. Actually, it all began with me stating that I prefer
whole milk which invited a slew of nonsense from your side.
The sentence preceding your quote of yourself above is:
<snip>
[Hermit quoted]As for the ridiculous idea of selling whole-fat milk straight
from the cow, I doubt many consumers would know what to do with it or how to
handle it.The human stomach cannot handle whole milk except in miniscule
quantities (which won't provide you enough calcium to avoid osteoporosis).
<snip>
[Mermaid]Lets not forget that I never proposed the 'ridiculous idea of
selling whole-fat milk straight from the cow'. Lets not forget who the liar
is...
[Hermit][..][url=http://forum.javien.com/XMLmessage.php?id=id::ulxNjGkt-cowR-FDwO-FS7e-jiwunM2DIgiL]"virus:
Lets not beat around the meat.", Hermit, Mon 2002-02-25 22:44[/url], and ask
you to explain how your on going spewing has refuted this?
[Mermaid]Yes, I ask you that because there was absolutely no justification
for:
http://forum.javien.com/XMLmessage.php?id=id::WiyPGWTa-Xjen-PMGP-R55v-2lN_w9Oyc6ni
<snip>
[Mermaid earlier]I'd trust my grandmother's words more than your
'experiments' because your proclamations hold so little value for me and you
have proven to be too besotted to your image that you like to project in
this forum. That compromises the integrity of your statements. I am with
Grandma. Ghee is not a recent invention, so she stays on solid ground.
btw..I checked with my mother. Ghee will last for at least 2 weeks without
going rancid in India. No pots in a stream even!
[Hermit 3] Let's see (note my emphasis):
[url]http://:www.deccanherald.com/deccanherald/july15/at10.htm+ghee+rancid&hl=enl]
[url]
Says CERS ‘’If you want a ghee that makes you want to smell it long and
deep, then you would be happy with Farm Fresh. Considering flavour, colour,
texture and presence of impurities, it scored the highest at 93 and was
followed by EveryDay and Verka with a score of 91.
Gayatri, RKG and Verka did not conform to the standards of Agmark for
sediment. Goa Dairy, Anik and Devi did not have the Agmark label but they
too had sediment. Though all the brands conformed to the PFA copper limit of
not more than 30 parts per million, the international standard Codex only
allows 0.05 ppm. Only EveryDay, Goa Dairy, Milkman and Sagar and the two
loose samples showed no copper.
Both BIS and Agmark have no standards for DDT while the PFA Act has set a
maximum limit of 1.25 mm. This is odd since DDT is banned from use in
agriculture! DDT was found in all the samples. Significantly, Devi showed
Heptachlor, while Amul, Farm Fresh, Gayatri, Gits, Goa Dairy, Sagar,Nandini
and Nova showed Lindane.
[b][i]Old or improperly stored ghee becomes rancid since the peroxide value
rises[/i][b]. This gives an off-flavour. So CERS advises that you should
check the condition of the pack before buying your ghee. The loose samples
showed the highest peroxide levels while Anik, Milkman, Goa Dairy and
EveryDay met the BIS standard for peroxide value.
[/quote]
[Hermit 3] Poor granny. Note that this refers to ghee sold by stores - which
keep it under refrigerated conditions. Perhaps she is getting too little
meat... or perhaps it is the high levels of healthy copper and DDT. Perhaps
you were affected the same way...
<snip>
OR FOR QUOTE:
[quote]
death due to coronary heart disease was higher in people of South Asian
origin than in whites or blacks according to a survey done by the City
Hospital, Birmingham, England. The reasons were that Asians bought foods
with the highest fat content and fried their food more often. They also ate
more butter, eggs and milk. However, don’t cut ghee out entirely but use it
judiciously and burn it off with exercise says the Society in its consumer
magazine Insight (Vol. 21. No. 4 July-August 2001. ) E-mail address:
cerc@wilnetonline.net, phone: 7489945/46, 7450528.
[/quote]
[Mermaid]Far flung from the original topic which was about 'animal rights'.
you, my nutless wonder...YOU have dragged this topic to end in ghee because
you cannot pass up on an opportunity to contradict me in this forum.
[Mermaid burbled] I simply HAD to look for that DeccanHerald article on
'copper ghee'. I found a cached version of your DeccanHerald article.
[Hermit] Excellent. Now do a search for "rancid ghee" on Google. Notice all
the [i]Indian[/i] recipes for rancid ghee. See how many of them are
historical. See how many of them there are on the first page. Which gives
the lie to your assertion that you did a "random search" on "ghee and
rancidity." You had to look rather hard for the citations you made. Now read
the appended item. Hopefully it is short enough even for your attention
span. Once you push your eyes back into their orbs, please write a pretty
retraction and stop spewing nonsense.
[Mermaid]That is exactly how I did the search following the tail of your
half-valid url. That is how I came up with the three urls I provided. Of
course, I didnt send the link from the chat boards of 'chowhounds'.
http://www.chowhound.com/boards/general1/messages/862.html
<snip>
Should I have posted the link to:
Greetings, Chowhounds! I'm a restaurant critic, food
writer and, most of all, committed chowhound.
This weekend, I was a cohost of an Asian fusion dinner
at which Jim was a guest. One of the dishes I'd cooked
was an Indian dessert named *gajjar ka halwa*, a rich
carrot pudding with raisins and cashews. The dish is
usually referred to as "carrot halva", but that term is
a bit confusing, as it has associations with the Middle
Eastern confection (which I absolutely hate).
I mentioned that the first step in cooking gajjar ka
halwa, is a fairly global technique - the sauteeing of
aromatic elements in fat. Here, the recipe started with
the sauteeing of raisins which had been plumped in water
in ghee, the nutty clarified butter which is the main
cooking fat of India. When the ghee was perfumed, the
raisins were removed and the carrots added and cooked
down.
This triggered a discussion which I found intriguing,
with one of my interlocutors stating that frequently
recipes from India, the Middle East and North Africa
call specifically for rancid ghee.
While I don't doubt that the difficulties of keeping
butter fresh in these hot climates means that cooks
occasionally use rancid fat, I thought that this was
unlikely. Rancid fats are different from cultured food
products like yogurt, creme fraiche and wine.
However, a friend points out that rancid ghee is used to
flavour tea in the Himalayas, where cool air and snow
mean that preservation of butter is an option.
Does anyone have any insight into this issue? Did
anyone's mother or father keep a pot of rancid cooking
oil tucked away somewhere for making special, authentic
recipes from these parts of the world?
What say you, Chowhounds?
<snip>
OR
http://www.sids.com/thechef/tips.htm
OR
http://ndri.nic.in/Research/dc.htm
... A method has been developed for the renovation of rancid ghee. Ghee
rennovated from rancid ghee upto PV 5 is recommended fit for human
consumption and ...
[Mermaid]..where with the above..I dont know what exactly PV 5. I dont speak
of things that I dont know. I have no problem accepting it either.
[Mermaid]So..it was indeed a random search. If I were to lie, hermit, I'd be
giving a very bad performance...so I seldom lie.
[Mermaid earlier] I am not surprised that it is entirely irrelevant to the
topic of discussion.
[Hermit] Raises his eyebrows.
[quote]...Ghee also goes rancid...[/quote].
[Hermit]Wasn't that the point of this argument, doll? It seems that your
definition of "irrelevant" is as unique as your spelling and idea of what
constitutes a dialog - at least when India and Indian beliefs are involved.
[Mermaid]I also said that ghee stays fresh for 2 weeks in Indian climate and
here, at higher latitude, it has a shelf life of one year. All along, the
context was not about commerically sold ghee, but specificially ghee from
butter to illustrate that some people will not die from milk fats.
[Mermaid]Once more..let me repeat, I am not a representative of all of
India. What I said about ghee was housed within a certain context and which
was initiated after you introduced into the discussion "a certain
country"<your words, not mine...you choice to bring in "Indian and Indian
beliefs"..not mine..I was only interested in what *I* believed about the
need for more kindness and compassion for the animals we slaughter for our
food>...which wasnt present in any of my posts before.
[Mermaid]And you are bringing up the issue of spelling? Havent got anything
else to wank? Maybe its too small that you have to harass me whenever you
get an itch?...:)
[Mermaid earlier] The article is a op-ed about a consumer report about 15
brands of ghee. Did you believe that all that is 'ghee' is encompassed
within these 15 brands?
[Hermit] No, doll. The invalid insertion of "all" into the statements of
others (I have noticed you doing it at least three times in the past few
days) is apparently a characteristic of yours. A bad habit and one you
should attempt to wean yourself out of. It makes you look foolish.
[Mermaid]'looking foolish' doesnt bother me. It is an occasional hazard that
I am willing to deal with it. I can also rectify it! But I have to admit, it
does suit you. Foolishness becomes you, my DitchWater Prince.
[Mermaid quoted] Lets not forget that the article is dated 1999. God!! You
are an embarrassment!!
[Hermit] And how has ghee changed since then? Or is it a question of that
ghee not being the same as that of your grandmother?
[Mermaid]You know and I know that you know that my grandmother has been dead
for 15 years around 1999. Since we wont be having one of those 'off-list
fishing' emails that you so like to employ for "gaining confidence and
friends", dont try to be cute and pretend.
[Hermit]Granted that you didn't previously know that Indian milk contains a
surfeit of PCBs, DDT and metals, there I was thinking that it was a recipe
that had been around for thousands of years.
[Mermaid]Still irrelevant. And as I read your last sentence again, I have to
say that its an incredibly stupid sentence too.
[b]Hint to Virians, while not quite as reliable a bullshit
indicator as invalid capitalization, the interjection of spurious
exclamation points is usually a "klue" to wise that the assertion so bounded
is deserving of additional inspection.[/b]
[Mermaid]Yea..now twirl and bow to the audience.
[Mermaid quoted] I did explain the process from milk-ghee didnt I?
[Hermit] Doll, you did. I noticed it because I find your habit of attempting
to engage in the teaching of your maternal ancestress to extract the
embryonic juices of the domesticated fowl by suction - usually badly - but
in an oh so patronizing tone - ever so slightly annoying.
[Mermaid]Thats your problem. I cannot be held responsible for your
insecurities.
[Mermaid]Embryonic juices of the domesticated fowl by suction...yeaaa!
[Hermit]But not so badly annoying that I would have mentioned it had you not
done so.
[Mermaid quoted] At which point did you imagine that bottled ghee consumer
reports are pertinent to the discussion at hand??
[Hermit] Yes Doll. They are.
[Mermaid]No, they are not. I was talking about me and my preference. In
passing and in parenthesis. I did not bring up bottled ghee consumer
reports.
<big fat snip of assorted carefully selected citations and unnecessary
repost of a full article>
[url=http://www.cgiar.org/ilri/dbtw-wpd/fulldocs/smhdairy/18gbk-04.htm#P50_16044]"Traditional
milk conservation and processing practices in the Indian subcontinent",
International Livestock Research Institute (ILRI),22 February 2002[/url]
[Hermit: Note order reversed, my emphasis]
[quote]
Ghee, the butter-fat prepared chiefly from cow or buffalo milk, is the most
common milk product in the Indian sub-continent. It is used as a cooking or
frying medium, and is also consumed directly (with rice or chhapatis) apart
from being used in confectionery and in traditional medicines.
Traditionally, the household ferments whole milk into dahi and churns out
makkhan (butter) [Hermit: infra]. Fresh or accumulated over days, makkhan is
clarified at 105-145_C in a suitable open mud pot or metallic vessel,
stirred continuously on a low fire to drive out all the moisture. The vessel
is then removed from the fire and, on cooling, the residue settles down, and
the clear fat is decanted into a suitable container. [b][i]Ghee has somewhat
longer keeping quality than makkhan[/i][/b] and can be transported over long
distances. Modern dairy plants manufacture ghee on a large scale. [b]The
development of an oxidised flavour or tallowiness in ghee is accelerated at
higher storage temperatures. At household level, its storage temperature may
vary from 5-38_C (usually recommended at 21_C) though refrigeration delays
acid development and prolongs the keeping quality by rendering the product
greasy and pasty.[/b]... [b]Because it is susceptible to deterioration due
to exposure to light, air and metals[/b], tin-coated (non-toxic and
non-tainting) containers are used for packaging. Food-grade plastic
containers and polyethylene pouches are also used.
...
Makkhan or butter normally obtained by churning whole milk dahi (curd) with
crude indigenous devices, is essentially an input to the ghee (clarified
butter) making process at household level though people also apply it
directly on chhapatis (leavened bread). ... Parchment papers are used in
packaging, for refrigeration and storage. [b][i]Keeping quality is low under
existing rural conditions but improved methods of production can enhance the
keeping quality.[/b][/i]
Fermented products Indian households [/b]partially extend the life of milk
from 12 to 24 hours[/b] by simple heat treatment which destroys most
microflora. Temperatures of 20-40_C in the warm parts of the year are most
favourable for the growth of micro-organisms which bring about spoilage of
milk within a few hours of milking. So the simplest way of preserving milk
for human consumption in a tropical country is to allow it to sour which
checks putrefactive changes while giving the milk an acid taste which is
particularly refreshing in a hot climate. A variety of fermented milk
products are made and consumed in the Indian sub-continent.
[/quote]
[Hermit] As this matches my experience, both when experimenting with
historical practices for a "Living Museum" and when applying what I had
learnt to living in areas of Africa without power, and whereas you had to go
back to your mother to find out about it, despite having previously claimed
"...Considering I used to make my own cream, ghee
<Indian clarified butter>, buttermilk and curds from our cows milk, I know
for a fact...,"
[url=http://forum.javien.com/XMLmessage.php?id=id::hTkFG87X-MtGE-X6dY-EtcO-LgbiKbQpfMeR]"virus:
to hermit: Lets not beat around the meat.", Mermaid, Mon Feb 25, 2002 03:25
pm[/url] you will understand why I find the articles from reputable
organizations which confirm my experience vastly more persuasive than your
second-hand and third-hand anecdotes.
[Mermaid]I have made ghee first hand and I did mention that in my earlier
posts, didnt I?
[Mermaid]The "reputable organizations" speak of India. I spoke of my
experience and preferences. Vast difference and over-generalisation on your
part.
[Mermaid]As always, have a merry fucking day. Expecting more debris from you
as you obviously have nothing else to do other than spend all day calling me
'doll'. You must love me a great deal.
P.S.Also note that I havent snipped anything from your post. This is just to
prove how tedious it is to wade through your crap without snipping.
Overwhelming readers with sheer volume and size of posts with little content
is indeed your trademark, especially considering most of what you have to
say come from some other source on the net. This post is only to show how
useful snipping is while replying back to you. I will be snipping the
irrelevance from now on.
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