From: Mermaid . (britannica@hotmail.com)
Date: Wed Feb 27 2002 - 14:24:53 MST
Note to Hermit: You dont have to address the rest because whatever you have
already said has very little content and much distraction. From observing
how this has been going, I can see that most of your gripe is about my
personal beliefs. You are in turn, advocating *your* beliefs with malicious
and dishonest intent which, however cavalier, is not something I am going to
attempt to change. This speaks volumes about you. You have made this forum
into a social club and also for stroking your various itching sores. The
former doesnt concern me, but the latter is something that I wont touch with
a ten foot pole or even a bloody tampon.
However, since I dislike unfinished business most of the times...
[Hermit 3] Mermaid, after gently sniping the points where she made an
absolute ass of herself tried to improve her responses - and missed the boat
due to the fact that she is still focused on desperately trying to prove
herself correct...
1.I only snip you responses when I totally ignore it and when I dont respond
to it. On the other hand, you snip part of my post and respond to the rest.
2.I refuse to keep appending to your nonsensical posts and increasing the
volume of the posts.
[Hermit 3] She cited a sequence of posts, all of which I had previously
read, yet nowhere did I see anything supporting her claim to have been
suggesting "I said that if you are going to drink milk...drink less, but
drink the best tasting, wholesome milk available even if its a tad more
expensive. Maybe I was hoping that cost will be deterring factor when people
choose to fill their stomachs with hormone laden blood stained milk. In
fact, I was very clear about that." Let's see if she can do better next
time...
[Mermaid]Go to my very first post. I have made it very clear my preference
of whole milk over fat free milk. I also made it very clear that instead of
avoiding whole milk totally, one should moderate. The last time I checked,
you could read.
[Hermit 3] Chickens establish a "pecking order" or status hierarchy by
aggressively pecking at each other. When a chicken is killed, the others eat
it. To minimize this harm battery chickens are debeaked.
[Mermaid]That is definitely different from force feeding them mush through
tubes. Moving away from chicken for a bit, ever wondered why foie gras is
suddenly so popular and abundant? Maybe people should visit facilities to
see how they are made fat.
[Hermit]Even with debeaking, mortality due to pecking averages 10 percent of
farm flocks. Deliberate cannibalism may be triggered by too much heat and
light, too many birds in too small a building or too long without feed and
water. Once it occurs, it rapidly spreads through a flock and becomes
endemic. Debeaking of all chickens - including free range chickens - is the
USDA recommended way to prevent cannibalism. In debeaking 1/3 of the upper
beak is trimmed off. The animals most certainly can still peck - the USDA
provides various feed mixture recommendations for various purposes including
free ranging - all
contain grains. Source: Our local USDA agent 2002-02-26
[Mermaid]There has been repeated appeals to the USDA to ban debeaking.
http://www.upc-online.org/merchandise/debeak_factsheet.html
<some snippets>
American poultry and egg producers using battery cages and crowded floor
systems remove one-half to two-thirds of the birds' beaks to reduce
"cannibalistic" pecking. Cannibalism is a distorted behavior pattern in
domestic fowl and game birds reared in captivity resulting from the abnormal
restriction of the normal span of activities of a healthy, secure, ranging
fowl. It includes vent picking, feather pulling, toe picking, and head
picking. Diseases of Poultry, 8th ed. States that "A different form of
cannibalism is now being observed in beak-trimmed birds kept in cages. The
area about the eyes is black and blue with subcutaneous hemorrhage, wattles
are dark and swollen with extravasated blood, and ear lobes are black and
necrotic." p.741.
Some poultry scientists and other poultry industry representatives say
opposition to debeaking is based "more on emotion than research." In fact,
debeaking was fully explored by the Brambell Committee, a group of
veterinarians and other experts appointed by Parliament to investigate
animal welfare concerns arising from intensive farming in the early 1960's.
The committee wrote in 1965: "There is no physiological basis for the
assertion that the operation is similar to the clipping of human finger
nails. Between the horn and bone [of the beak] is a thing layer of highly
sensitive soft tissue, resembling the quick of the human nail. The hot knife
blade used in debeaking cuts through this complex horn, bone and sensitive
tissue causing severe pain."
<[Mermaid]Think declawing. It's the fucking pain for every living being. Be
it chicken, cat or YOU. Empathy:1 : the imaginative projection of a
subjective state into an object so that the object appears to be infused
with it 2 : the action of understanding, being aware of, being sensitive to,
and vicariously experiencing the feelings, thoughts, and experience of
another of either the past or present without having the feelings, thoughts,
and experience fully communicated in an objectively explicit manner; also :
the capacity for this>
In 1990, in "Behavioral evidence for persistent pain following partial beak
amputation in chickens," published in Applied Animal Behavior Science, Vol.
27, Michael Gentle and his associates at the Institute of Animal Physiology
and Genetics Research, Edinburgh, Scotland, showed that experimentally
debeaked chickens demonstrated chronic pain and suffering following the
operation. Gentle explains: "The avian beak is a complex sensory organ which
not only serves to grasp and manipulate food particles prior to ingestion,
but is also used to manipulate non-food articles in nesting behavior and
exploration, drinking, preening, and as a weapon in defensive and aggressive
encounters. To enable the animal to perform this wide range of activities,
the beak of the chicken has an extensive nerve supply with numerous
mechanoreceptors, thermoreceptors, and nociceptors [ nerve endings sensitive
to mechanical pressures, heat and pain]....Beak amputation results in
extensive neuromas [tumors] being formed in the healed stump of the beak
which give rise to abnormal spontaneous neural activity in the trigeminal
[threefold] nerve. The nociceptors present in the beak of the chicken have
similar properties to those found in mammalian skin and the neural activity
arising from the trigeminal neuromas is similar to that reported in the rat,
mouse, cat and the baboon. Therefore, in terms of the peripheral neural
activity, partial beak amputation is likely to be a painful procedure
leading not only to phantom and stump pain, but also to other
characteristics of the hyperpathic syndrome, such as allodynia and
hyperalgesia [the stress resulting from, and extreme sensitiveness to,
painful stimuli]."
<end snippets>
[Hermit 3] As I asked before:
[Hermit 2] Feeling skewered by your stupidity yet?
[Mermaid]Isnt that your job?
[Hermit 3] Refer to my post
[url=http://forum.javien.com/XMLmessage.php?id=id::J8Vvn3KJ-VgJ_-XyNu-8rkk-tySnTVt6kyVq]"We
the cannibals...", Hermit, Tue 2002-02-26 23:16[/url]
[Mermaid]I did. I also caught the word, Neanderthals. Cannibalism, when it
doesnt cater to another survival instinct..i.e.sustenance...is still
abhorrent because its self defeating. We are around 'despite cannibalistic
tendencies' only because of the abundant supply of alternate food sources.
If the instinct to eat one's own kind is inherent and dominant, <which was
the actual meaning of my position before you chose to distort it> we would
be eating more than pussy cream, strawberries and steak.
[Hermit 3] Indeed, another Mermaid assertion bites the dust.
[Mermaid]I would like to pause here for just one moment. The reading and
mostly silent population<other than the your sheep, of course> here do
realise that your technique of asserting the opposition's 'stupidity' or
passing condescending comments alongwith addressing the crowd instead of
addressing the me, the opposing participant in this discussion, is a clear
promotion of the Us Vs Them sentiment. This doesnt belong at a respectable
or in some cases friendly discussion or debate tables. This belongs on
political platforms where one pegs another as an enemy/opponent to be
vanquished and keeps on throwing verbal versions of vegetable peels and
rotten eggs irrespective of the validity of the words spoken. The last wispy
shreds of respect I had for your scholarly aptitude, which didnt diminish
despite the putrid personality that you choose to exhibit, is disappearing
fast.
[Hermit 3] I, and probably most everyone else has noticed that you prefer to
snip and ignore when your gabbling is demonstrated for what it is. On this
occasion, my argument is not what you were or were not saying about meat, it
about your highly misleading assertions about "organic farming" and
cannibalism.
[Mermaid]Refer above for why and how I snip. You havent anything to say
about your jabs after the partial snippings where I caught you red handed.
[Mermaid 3]Hmm..Mentally deficient organic enthusiasts?? Right...moving on..
[Hermit 3] Deficiencies quantitively and qualitively proven. Missing
[i]essential[/i] acids... there are reasons why they are essential.
[Mermaid]Can you give me a source?
[Hermit 3] After being shown that the cost of milk would rise to
[Mermaid]So what? I dont drink milk by the gallons and I *know* that I am
not drinking white milk-pus that has been bled out of cows stuffed into
spaces not bigger than wooden crates. Like I said, you should taste it
before you diss it. There is a definite difference in taste.
[Hermit 3] If the cost of milk should rise from the current price of about
$1 per gallon to $7.38 per gallon (which is what Mermaid asserts she is
paying) school feeding systems would be thrown into bankruptcy throughout
the US. And the incidence of malnutrition would almost certainly quadruple
or more.
[Mermaid]You said you get 4 gallons of milk for the cost of my half gallon
of milk. Which would put the cost of milk at less than a dollar.
http://www.cdfa.ca.gov/dairy/cmps/data/summary3.htm
That puts cost per gallon of whole milk at an ave of $2.84 per gallon as of
Dec 2001. I know cost of living is much lower in IA than on either coasts,
but if you are paying 80+c per gallon of milk..maybe one should ponder upon
whys and hows of the already widespread malnutrition amongst the very young
population of the USA despite the cheap availability of food.
[Mermaid]You have repeatedly ignored the fact that the 'whole milk' comment
was a 'pet peeve' and was in no way part of my general post. There was a
good reason why I put that within parenthesis. Your constant bile spewing
over a personal stance and purposefully translating that as an imagined
attack from my side says volumes about your dick size. Enquiring minds want
to know!!
[Hermit]As demonstrated by the delightful Mermaid, she doesn't give a shit -
if you didn't know it before, her concerns are reserved for the cows. How
very traditional.
[Mermaid]Another shred of respect for Hermit..going..going..GONE!
[Hermit 3] Mermaid first asserted that she grew up on milk "straight from
the udder",
[Mermaid]That 'assertion' was part of the following in a post to ben:
<snip>
Safety also includes knowing that someone is not milking blood
alongwith what is supposed to be food for the youngling.<Yes...cows dont
lactate until they have a calf...more cow facts will be provided upon
enquiry...and yes...I grew up on fresh milk straight from the udder...so
yes...cows are not harmed nor do they squirm with pain if you rely on it to
satisfy your dairy needs..in fact..if they are not milked on time and the
udders get too heavy, the cow is in a lot of pain.>
<snip>
[Mermaid]It was in a totally different context and I did mention it in my
previous post too when you whined earlier. You are behaving like a child
now.
[Hermit] then when I observed that humans cannot handle the levels of fat in
cows milk "straight from the udder" asserted that she thrived on it. Then
claimed that this was not what she was advocating...
[Mermaid]Which is true...I even said that you might be right despite your
bitchy tone that most human beings cannot handle whole milk and it could be
because of my genetic makeup that I am more lactose tolerant than those who
are intolerant or allergic. I have allergies too, but that is not dairy
specific. But *I* did not club together those two 'assertions'. You did. You
did because you thrive on spreading confusion and distortion. Pathetic.
[Hermit]and wandered off onto her current obsession - that Americans are
excessive.
[Mermaid]I did not 'wander' off. I have always maintained that and did
mention it in my very first post...that quality matters more than quantity.
Too much of anything in excessive quantities can be harmful. Over and over
again, it was you who braided together several different topics and chose to
attack my personal stance which I had clearly seperated from my general
posting. I spoke of the eating trends in America because it directly affects
me and the results are laid bare for me to stare. When I go to live in
Greenland, I will be able to closely observe their eating patterns..:)
[Hermit]Yet another topic where she is long on emotive opinion and short on
facts, followed by a diatribe against orange juice and an assortment of
opinions on flavors.
[Mermaid]What do you think YOU are doing?
[Hermit 3] Mermaid issued a challenge:
[Mermaid 2] <India has fridges too..duh..when do you think GE came out with
an ice box in the US? lets see if you can come up with the year, Chuckles
and I will tell you when India sold its first fridge.>
[Hermit 3] To which I responded fully and completely. After admitting that
what she wrote wasn't what she meant, and attempting a political(?) diatribe
to what end nobody bar the Mermaid could possibly guess she demonstrated
again why she is so well loved and known as the PsychoBitch:
[Mermaid 3] I am not even going to read what you spewed.
[Hermit 3] Smile doll. You are on "Candid Camera."
[Mermaid]Political diatribe??
[Mermaid]*I* did not ask for the history of refridgeration techniques from
the beginning of time. It was once more your technique of adding volume to
post to make it sound 'credible'.
[Mermaid]I'd trust my grandmother's words more than your 'experiments'
because your proclamations hold so little value for me and you have proven
to be too besotted to your image that you like to project in this forum.
That compromises the integrity of your statements. I am with Grandma. Ghee
is not a recent invention, so she stays on solid ground. btw..I checked with
my mother. Ghee will last for at least 2 weeks without going rancid in
India. No pots in a stream even!
[Hermit 3] Let's see (note my emphasis):
[url]http://:www.deccanherald.com/deccanherald/july15/at10.htm+ghee+rancid&hl=enl]
[Mermaid]Ok..here again, you slip. I am not a representative of India or the
Indian Diary Industry. I gave an example from my upbringing in *my*
household wrt dairy as I was only speaking of *my* personal preferences and
pet peeves. I have never bought bottled ghee. I was raised by three
different women at different points of time of my childhood. But it was the
same kitchen and there has never been a store bought jar of ghee in there.
There has never been rancid ghee in my household. I still do not see the
relevance of your 'emphasis'. It is very silly to generalise with the
support of one article in a regional newspaper which covers a very very
small part of that region...not even the country. <the url doesnt work, so I
couldnt figure out if its a national study or a regional study. I doubt if
its national because at a glance i can see that the names of several
familiar dairy farms are missing in that article. We dont know if all brands
from all states have been included in the study. We should also remember
that Granny lived a long time ago. So really..you need to find someone
really stupid to palm off such incomplete and irrelevant nonsense>India is a
large country and each region..each state has different practices. I
repeatedly mentioned that my views are personal which means that it has
nothing to do with India.
[Hermit 3] Poor granny. Note that this refers to ghee sold by stores - which
keep it under refrigerated conditions. Perhaps she is getting too little
meat... or perhaps it is the high levels of healthy copper and DDT. Perhaps
you were affected the same way...
[Mermaid]LOL. I am glad I didnt ignore your post and chose to reply. This
will provide me with hours and hours of entertainment. I have already
forwarded your previous droppings to some non-virians who totally enjoy the
exchange and thank you! you will be a topic of much mirth and laughter.
[Mermaid 2]It seems that they [Hermit: Americans] are not good at handling a
lot of things
[Mermaid]Actually that was in response to:
<snip>
[Hermit 1] In addition to bacterial risks, about 60% of the US (and Northern
European) population is not very good at handling saturated fats.
<snip>
[Mermaid]So 'they'=the US (and Northern Europeon) population which is not
very good at handling saturated fats. Hmm..I wonder if 'they' havent
"lumbered themselves into a selective breeding program practically
guaranteed to cause inbreeding and associated generic defects". Very sly,
Hermit.
[Hermit 2] Actuarial evidence is that they live longer than Indians, while
genetic engineering tells us that no matter how poor their genes are at
disposing them to deal with cholesterol, they are in a better condition than
most Brahmins, not having lumbered themselves with a selective breeding
program practically guaranteed to cause inbreeding and associated genetic
defects.
[Mermaid]No? Non-Brahmins do not have genetic defects?? You have me in
stitches here. Good one!
[Hermit 3] Wonders where Mermaid found her counter assertion in what was
said?
[Mermaid]Hermit 2 post which upon second thoughts also seems to be racist.
[Mermaid earlier]My stance is still the same. I am lactose tolerant and it
is, in all probability, a genetic factor by design. I am able to break down
the constituents of the dairy products that I ingest. Whats this got to do
about the first thing I dont know? It does make my genetic make up different
from those who are so very lactose intolerant. I might be wrong, but you got
to prove it. In all probability, I am right. So....please drive through...
[Hermit 3] Whose design the Mermaid no doubt cannot tell us. But is she
telling the truth here? Not likely. From the above reference article
[Ibid]:
>From the same article, another trashing of your bigoted assertions:
[Mermaid]*My* bigoted assertions?? Where did THAT come from, poopy?
[quote]
death due to coronary heart disease was higher in people of South Asian
origin than in whites or blacks according to a survey done by the City
Hospital, Birmingham, England. The reasons were that Asians bought foods
with the highest fat content and fried their food more often. They also ate
more butter, eggs and milk. However, don’t cut ghee out entirely but use it
judiciously and burn it off with exercise says the Society in its consumer
magazine Insight (Vol. 21. No. 4 July-August 2001. ) E-mail address:
cerc@wilnetonline.net, phone: 7489945/46, 7450528.
[/quote]
[Mermaid]Anyone with an IQ above room temperature will want to know the
relevance of the above quote.
[Mermaid]I still stand by what I have said several times in the past. Good
food, proper balance and a non-sedentary lifestyle will probably contribute
to a better if not perfect existence.
[Mermaid]Lactose tolerance is different from consumption or over consumption
of foods with high fat content. The article is still irrelevant and
misleading. But then, thats not surprising considering that it was quoted by
you.
[Hermit]If you desire it, I will address the balance, but I don't consider
it necessary.
[Mermaid]No, you dont have to worry about addressing anything. I do not want
to waste my time on this anymore.
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