From: Mermaid . (britannica@hotmail.com)
Date: Tue Feb 26 2002 - 01:39:12 MST
[Hermit 2] Given your lack of an attention span, should I expect to be on
ignore already?
[Mermaid]You should be on ignore. You have proved once again that you can be
extremely childish when it comes to 'pushing' your opinions.
[Hermit 2] Doll, nobody could possibly do a better job distorting your
claimed meaning than you so frequently appear to do to yourself. Your
“peevishness” being renowned, you cannot really blame anybody who develops a
desire to fuck with your foibles. But I draw the line at toying with your
used tampons - and didn’t. So I don’t know what you think you have to
complain about - unless it is the fact that I frequently prefer my meat
without sauce.
[Mermaid]Hmm..I see its time for another diaper change and a quick swat.
[Hermit 1] Next, chickens. Aside from doves, chickens are probably the most
vicious birds - and the most cannibalistic. Any poultry farmer will tell you
that most roosters will break any eggs that were not fertilized by him, or
that contain another rooster - or will kill any chicks unless kept carefully
separately. And all of the chickens that can get to the remains will eat the
contents of the eggs or the bodies of the chicks.
[Hermit 2] Feeling skewered by your stupidity yet?
[Mermaid]You will after you have done your full reading
1.What do chicken eat?
Grain<chicken scratch>, green stuff and proteins<worms!>. Of course, water.
See more: http://www.lionsgrip.com/intro.html
2.What do some very successful chicken farmers feed their chickens?
Hormones, antibiotics, meat scraps, fish meal. They are de-beaked so they
cannot eat what is their natural diet...peckable grains. They are force fed
with some sort of medicated-hormoneladen-meat-grain mush.
If you ponder on both the points above..I mean..*really* think before you
start hitting the keys, you'd realise how trivial and unrelated your issue
on adult animals attacking their own species or younglings is...
[Hermit 2] Hermit notes that a pair of roosters will fight to the death and
the victor - if there is one, will scavenge from the dying bird. Then too,
adult pigs will attack and kill one another if one is bleeding - and will
eat each other alive. And stopping that means that the farmers have to keep
a close eye on their sties - and cattle prods close to hand. Yet it still
gets bloody dangerous when pigs get into a feeding frenzy and start eating
one another. Pigs will eat anything. And don't particularly care if it is
alive or dead. Pig farming is not a job for the squeamish or delusional.
[Mermaid]Yes, Pigs will eat anything. But that has nothing to do with what I
had to say. I was specifically speaking about chickens and chicken
feed..i.e. meat based chicken scraps instead of chicken scratch.
There is a difference between how animals interact amongst each other and
how meat farmers force feed animals so that they look good in the freezer.
Get a clue.
[Hermit 2] It is only irrelevant to you, ducky. Everyone else could see that
your previous assertion about “No species of animals eat their own.
[Mermaid]See?...if you, for one minute, forget about 'everyone else' and
actually read what I had to say before you get all wet and drippy about
disagreeing with me with imagined bravado, you'd see why you made irrelevant
noise and nothing more.
[Hermit 2] Right. The way that humans did... Many of the archeological digs
we have done have shown that our ancestors liked human meat (or perhaps it
was just more accessible), particularly marrow, just about as much as pigs
enjoy pig meat – if not more. Yet there seem to be quite a number of people
around today. Does this mean that another Mermaid assertion bites the dust?
Are you finding this frustrating yet?
[Mermaid]Yes, I do find it completely and utterly obscene when the rump
roast for dinner used to belong to my ex-neighbour. Where are these
archeological digs and how much did our anscestors like human meat. A
timeline if you dont mind...
[Hermit 2]The argument is really that “organic farming” is
often far worse than ordinary commercial farming for the animals. The
farmer’s first task is to maximize his profits (when he makes any profit at
all), and we know how to more or less achieve this desirable state humanely
- in conventional farming. Organic farming, being based on a narrow range of
highly inefficient constraints tends to be much more brutal on all
concerned. Particularly on staff and stock. If you can't face the idea,
certainly, don't eat meat. It seems that you can hardly become very much
more scatterbrained than you already appear to be. Just don't try to tell
others what they should or should not do or the others might disagree. Gee.
Is that exactly what is happening here?
[Mermaid]Quite the opposite. I did make it very clear that I am not out to
convert meat eaters. In my opinion and if you care to dig around, you will
find that organic meats are definitely less tainted than the slabs thrown
out commercial meat factories. Perdue farms? News? Life under rock comfy?
[Hermit 2] The large cattle raising operations are doing the same. Keeping
them “organic” and off antibiotics until they develop a disease (often
mastitis) and then you butcher them and push the next batch through. Which
results in more diseased animals, and lower production. But while there are
nuts prepared to pay a couple of dollars a pound more for "organic meat" –
and milk - the policy returns handsome dividends (about $800 to $1000 more
per head) and on your figures, better than double the return on milk.
[Hermit 2] The context is above... do you need to be reminded that you
recently wrote, "I see that you are upto mischief again. Purposefully
distorting and quoting out of context." Perhaps you should try meat for a
while. If you can't bear the thought of eating “Babe”, try a holy cow
instead (if you can find any meat on one).
[Mermaid]I am really going to ignore the previous thread. Obviously, you are
so into playing to the crowd that you have convinced yourself that I am
advocating to this list that they should give up meat.
[Hermit 2] You convey so much, in such a blathering style, that it is
difficult to comprehend what your conditional implies.
[Mermaid]At least, I dont distort...:)
[Hermit 2]So not knowing, I'll play it safe by suggesting that I probably
would disagree if I could fathom out what you are attempting to get at.
[Mermaid]LOL
[Hermit 2] We can see you are not a meat eater. A pocket of potatoes or
onions, several heads of cabbage or lettuce, a box of fruits, a bucket of
ice-cream, a few pounds of cheese or a heap of what McDonald’s imagines are
“hamburgers,” can all be purchased for less than the cost of a decent
steak...
[Mermaid]How many meat eaters purchase 'a decent steak'. Are you a epicurean
elitist as well? Been to the local supermarket lately?
[Hermit 2]Yet people still like steaks, because we are at the top of the
food chain - and other animals are historical protein source.
[Mermaid]That has to be THE most absurd statement I have heard in this whole
exchange.
[Hermit]The argument you claim to have missed above is that the mentally
deficient “organic” enthusiasts, paying higher prices for meat
products raised under poor conditions, are (as is often the case when people
make a noise about areas where their knowledge is limited) causing much more
harm than good. This time the harm is to the animals, which so many of them
claim to care about.
[Mermaid]Hmm..Mentally deficient organic enthusiasts?? Right...moving on..
[Hermit 2]For myself, I like venison - which I shoot and butcher
myself (but having owned farms, I've slaughtered, butchered and enjoyed
eating all the animals mentioned here - except cats. Perhaps I should try
that.
[Mermaid]You must have mistaken me for someone who actually gives a damn
about what you like on your plate....:)
[Hermit 2] <snip of much cut & paste waffling about the mercies practiced on
bovines by very economically sane nutcases who rely on idiots to pay
excessive prices for the cost of a little BS. A vast amount of which is
present on any dairy farm. They just spread it more thickly and in somewhat
unusual places. And the idiots lap it all up. Yech.>
[Hermit 2] I buy 4 gallons of milk for the same price as your half gallon.
And if you multiply it by two, it figures out at $7.38. Which is way above
$5 per gallon. Which is what I pointed out initially... So what exactly was
your point? Do you know?
[Mermaid]So what? I dont drink milk by the gallons and I *know* that I am
not drinking white milk-pus that has been bled out of cows stuffed into
spaces not bigger than wooden crates. Like I said, you should taste it
before you diss it. There is a definite difference in taste.
[Hermit 1] As for the ridiculous idea of selling whole-fat milk straight
from the cow, I doubt many consumers would know what to do with it or how to
handle it. The human stomach cannot handle whole milk except in miniscule
quantities (which won’t provide you enough calcium to avoid osteoporosis).
[Mermaid]Right. Context. Look at the 'Hermit 1' post. You just pick up 'a
ridiculous idea' and try to portray it as mine. And quit calling me 'doll'.
It's getting old.
[Hermit 2] Duh. Context doll. Previously you said:
[Mermaid 1] I grew up on fresh milk straight from the udder...
[Mermaid]Did I say that fresh whole-fat milk should be sold?
Actually I said to ben under the mistaken impression that he was making
judgements about how one can judge the pain thresholds of animals. What I
really said:
<snip>
Safety also includes knowing that someone is not milking blood
alongwith what is supposed to be food for the youngling.<Yes...cows dont
lactate until they have a calf...more cow facts will be provided upon
enquiry...and yes...I grew up on fresh milk straight from the udder...so
yes...cows are not harmed nor do they squirm with pain if you rely on it to
satisfy your dairy needs..in fact..if they are not milked on time and the
udders get too heavy, the cow is in a lot of pain.>
<snip>
So really...you had no context and *gasp*...distorted what I said.
[Hermit 2] If you could manage more than a glass of that without throwing
up, you must have had an iron cast constitution, and in any case, you didn’t
get much benefit from it. There is no way that you could digest those fats
in quantity. The human stomach is not designed to digest those fats in any
volume. Or why we scoop the cream off the milk. Or were your cows so
malnourished that they produced no cream?
[Mermaid]That depends on what a 'glass' means. Here a glass milk = approx
500 ml..i.e. 2 cups. I went to a restaurant today and asked for a glass of
warm milk just to make sure what I am talking about...Thats a LOT of milk.
No wonder people get sick and are 'intolerant'. See what I mean about
excesses?
[Mermaid]As I am typing this, there is an OJ commercial on television. At
least 8-10 oranges have to be squeezed to fill a glass that size! How many
oranges can be consumed in one sitting by an average adult? and they feed
kids that much quantity!! AND no fibre in OJ even. Can you imagine the
implications? I know you love to bash me whenever you get an oppurtunity,
but if you really ponder on the meaning of my words...you'd see things as I
do. You dont even have to openly admit that you would consider
thinking...but please do try...
[Mermaid]My cows? Well..I am more partial to buffalo milk than to cow milk,
actually. It might smell different, but its an acquired taste. And I have
never been a fan of goats milk. Of all three, I'd say that buffalo milk was
the creamiest even after seperating cream from milk. Buffalo milk has higher
protein content followed by goat milk. Cows milk has least amount of protein
content amongst the three.
[Mermaid 2]I said nothing about 'selling whole-fat milk straight from the
cow'. I said that personally, I believe that whole milk rocks and is way
better tasting than 'fat free' milk.
[Hermit 2] But you did say:
[Mermaid 1] fuck 'fat free' milk...its not milk unless its whole milk WITH
cream
[Mermaid]Rightttt...I actually said:
<snip>
I would like to use this soapbox to talk about my other pet peeve...fuck
'fat free' milk...its not milk unless its whole milk WITH cream....dont give
up dairy completely...moderate>
<snip>
Pet peeve= a frequent subject of complaint. Translated to stoopid language:
I have a problem with fat free milk. M-E...*I* have an issue about which I
would like to make a complaint before descending from the soapbox that was
my post.
[Hermit 2] Wonders how Mermaid expects people to drink it unless it is sold?
[Mermaid]What? whole milk isnt sold? Hmm..what is it, Hermit? Old age? Yeast
infection? A fungus attack, maybe? Obviously something is hindering thy
thought processes.
[Hermit 2] Hermit notes that if you boil milk that you change both the
constituents and the taste. And that after you have done the above, it is
hardly “straight from the udder.” Hardly worth buying organic milk if you
intend to torture it like that. Pasteurization is much more effective as it
preserves the nutrient values.
[Mermaid]Straight from the udder was meant to mean 'unadulterated milk'. Who
is talking about organic milk? I was talking about how 'a certain warm
country with no refridgeration' conducts its domestic dairy consumption. You
should try and follow what I say, Hermit. You are getting confused about
several different issues. Focus or shut up.
[Mermaid 2] <India has fridges too..duh..when do you think GE came out with
an ice box in the US? lets see if you can come up with the year, Chuckles
and I will tell you when India sold its first fridge.>
[Hermit 2] GE was late into the game (noting that iceboxes were in use
hundreds of years before mechanical refrigeration). You should read up on
refrigeration history.
[Mermaid]My bad. It was supposed to be 'when do you think GE came out with a
refridgerator to replace ice boxes in the US'. The answer is 1920. I should
have reread that paragraph. Anyway..my point was that refridgeration
facilities, which took over another 4 decades to reach India with moderate
to scarce distribution amongst the population has nothing to do with why
ghee is made in 'certain warm countries'. I am not even going to read what
you spewed.
[Mermaid 2] Indian mothers and wives have been making milk, butter and
buttermilk for centuries.
[Hermit 2] I’d suggest that the evidence leads us to understand that the
Middle East and the West has been doing so for millennia.
[Mermaid]I am sure. Good...then you must know that lack of refridgeration
didnt cause kitchens to stagnate.
[Hermit 2] Ice works better.
[Mermaid]...which would have also been impossible to procure in an
environment which was mostly temperate to tropical.
[Hermit 2] Amazing! Did you learn that on the net?
[Mermaid]If you read sentences together instead of taking the time to spit
at me after every sentence, it will do you good.
[Hermit 2] Actually, how do you prevent butter from melting and going rancid
in a warm environment? Try to do it as an experiment.
[Mermaid]It floats in cold water. Has been done before...way before
refridgerators were marketed to the population. Everyone has grandmothers. I
had one too.
[Hermit] In the cool air of the mountains of the Western Cape (Mediterranean
climate), even using insulated containers packed with ice-bricks it would go
rancid within 3 days. BTDTBP. Ghee, on the other hand will last a week if
stored in a pot in a stream. Done that too. I’m not sure who is a know
nothing here, but I suspect that even an idiot would, by this time have an
inkling of a notion.
[Mermaid]I'd trust my grandmother's words more than your 'experiments'
because your proclamations hold so little value for me and you have proven
to be too besotted to your image that you like to project in this forum.
That compromises the integrity of your statements. I am with Grandma. Ghee
is not a recent invention, so she stays on solid ground. btw..I checked with
my mother. Ghee will last for at least 2 weeks without going rancid in
India. No pots in a stream even! Just sitting on the kitchen
shelf...imagine..the wonder of it all!! Here at higher latitudes, ghee has
stayed fresh for a month. Thats ghee I make from a pound of butter.
[Hermit 2] Of course, if little “is consumed” and “little is wasted” we
should wonder what the rest is used for? Ayur Vedic milk enemas? This was
one of those things which helped to convince me that the authors of the
Vedas didn’t know their mouths from their asses.
[Mermaid]Ayurvedic milk enemas...LOL...thats a good one. Poor Hermit. How
much did you have to spray for your Maharishi? Surely, the throbbing must
have felt good? Fortunately, most Indians dont suffer from the trauma that
is inflicted upon the 'enlightment-seeking' westerners. Hmm..on second
thoughts..you probably deserve an Ayurvedic milk enema...:)
[Mermaid]BTW...the above is another example of how you choose to exhibit
your pseudo occidental-elitist-Maharishi-fixated views whenever you have
writing space irrespective of whether its relevant or not to the existing
thread.
[Hermit 2] If you will parade your preferences ("Well..I'd suggest that meat
should be given up completely") all mixed up with a used sanitary towel on
top of it (shades of Mr. Creosote), is it a wonder we were confused?
[Mermaid]Again...you speak for 'we'...LOL..you are so needy and
transparent...this is actually fun for me. What..now one cannot express
one's preferences in COV anymore? You are the official evilguard of CoV
protecting the gates? Even then, it was still a preference in a paragraph
which was adequately punctuated with assurances that there is no hidden
agenda to convert meat eaters to vegetarianism.
[Mermaid 2]It seems that they are not good at handling a lot of things.
[Hermit 2] Actuarial evidence is that they live longer than Indians, while
genetic engineering tells us that no matter how poor their genes are at
disposing them to deal with cholesterol, they are in a better condition than
most Brahmins, not having lumbered themselves with a selective breeding
program practically guaranteed to cause inbreeding and associated genetic
defects.
[Mermaid]No? Non-Brahmins do not have genetic defects?? You have me in
stitches here. Good one!
[Mermaid 2]I dont recall saying, 'drink more milk'. I said that if you are
going to drink milk...drink less, but drink the best tasting, wholesome milk
available even if its a tad more expensive. Maybe I was hoping that cost
will be deterring factor when people choose to fill their stomachs with
hormone laden blood stained milk. In fact, I was very clear about that.
[Hermit 2] Difficult to figure out what you meant to say from what you
didn’t say... so if you still assert that you said the above, kindly quote
yourself, so that we too can appreciate your wit and wisdom as much as you
yourself so evidently do.
[Mermaid]LOL. You didnt have to sound so pathetic if you had only curbed
your knee jerk instinct to lash out at my post the moment you saw it and
dreamed that I was seeking to collect converts to vegetarianism.
My posts on this topic in the order that was sent:
http://forum.javien.com/XMLmessage.php?id=id::cx9_WFh7-ZhdA-WT1w-KFM0-NxNMEmYZMgZS
http://forum.javien.com/XMLmessage.php?id=id::UV0DQU8l-Jn5W-aw9N-alJP-RDkTRS9VKHgR
http://forum.javien.com/XMLmessage.php?id=id::hTkFG87X-MtGE-X6dY-EtcO-LgbiKbQpfMeR
http://forum.javien.com/XMLmessage.php?id=id::Cw8gWlVl-QBlF-KgM9-eSFS-KHQ1S1ZcejgP
[Hermit 2] Or perhaps you don’t know the first thing of what you are talking
about. If I were foolish enough to take bets on this, and if I were to lay
odds at 5:1 against your proposal, do you think the queue of takers would
stretch from here to Maine?
[Mermaid]Hmm..still you are not making any valid points or assertions.
Merely flailing your limbs around and throwing a weak tantrum after a really
really uninvited verbal shit fest.
[Mermaid]My stance is still the same. I am lactose tolerant and it is, in
all probability, a genetic factor by design. I am able to break down the
constituents of the dairy products that I ingest. Whats this got to do about
the first thing I dont know? It does make my genetic make up different from
those who are so very lactose intolerant. I might be wrong, but you got to
prove it. In all probability, I am right. So....please drive through...
[Hermit 1] These are the reasons, not really based on human health (except
in so far as it modifies buying habits), but economics and a desire not to
cause uneccessary harm (which come into most farming decisions), which have
lead to industrialized agriculture becoming dominant.
[Mermaid 2]The above sentence doesnt make any sense to me.
[Hermit 2] That is because it doesn't make sense and is not a sentence,
having been an accidental paste, in the wrong place, of the text before a
rewrite to correct it and containing spelling almost as original as yours to
boot! How about if it had read, "Economics and a desire not to cause
unnecessary harm (which comes into most farming decisions), not really human
health (except in so far as it modifies buying habits), are the reasons that
have lead to industrialized agriculture becoming dominant. However, whatever
supplies an abundance of food at low prices is, by definition, not bad for
people.
[Mermaid]hmm...it has spread to the brain. has the twitching started
already?
[Mermaid 2]Really? Do more humans live a better and longer life than ever
before because of increased meat consumption? Or were you saying something
else?
[Hermit 2] Improved nutrition and untainted food is a very large part of the
complex of reasons, which have lead to that result. It also means that we
keep more domesticated animals using fewer resources than at any previous
time in history. Which has a lot to do with the above. For many centuries,
unsalted meat was a luxury that most people, even the very wealthy, could
not attain.
[Mermaid]The current situation translates as improved nutrition and
untainted to you? A year ago:
http://www.cnn.com/2001/HEALTH/parenting/03/12/children.obesity/ More links
at the bottom of the url. This is just about obesity and children. If these
kids dont shape up, they are going to be very sick adults. Fibriods, heart
disease, cancer, tumours, diabetes, osteoporosis, are still around. Guess
how many of them can be related to diet? In third world countries, people
die starvation deaths and from diseases like malaria, typhoid etc. However,
there is nothing to back up your sentiment that increased meat production in
the slaughter farms has increased the quality of health.
[Hermit 2] Here you go again. This is your opinion. As usual, without any
support whatsoever for your premise. Which is why it is so tempting to cut
it off at the knees. And possibly an added incentive to make fun of you when
you attempt to heap scorn on others who dare to disagree with your
preconceptions, without recognizing upon what very shaky foundations you are
standing.
[Mermaid]What scorn? Me? You must be really bored. After I hit 'send', you
go on ignore.
[Hermit]Consider for a moment the implications of a [i]lot[/i] more
people… and a constant supply of meat. Now consider that modern
refrigeration means that it does not usually putrefy before it is eaten. Do
some arithmetic. Feel free to take off your shoes. Will a declining
population of animal foods stocks suffice to provide more people an
opportunity to have access to affordable meat? Hint, think John Maynard
Keynes.
[Mermaid]I was speaking of TODAY and the complete mess that is the general
health of a population which can afford to lead better quality of life...I
am speaking of the senseless infliction of pain and suffering over animals
to keep the ever increasing and unnecessary and never ending supply of meat
products...I am speaking about the resultant decline in the quality of meat.
Hint: THINK.
[Mermaid 2]I have never advocated a vegetarian/vegan lifestyle over a
nonvegetarian diet on this list. I only have trouble with the excesses of
the meat-eating population along with the callousness of their disregard for
life and rights of animals.
[Hermit 2] You should hide your opinions better, because they so often lead
to your contradicting yourself...
[Mermaid]Why? Would that please you? Do you break into hives whenever I
voice an opinion? That should be incentive enough to wade through the BS you
spew despite your favourite weapon of choice: sheer volume of posts combined
with diversive and distortive tactics.
[Hermit 2]I remind you again:[Mermaid 1] Well..I'd suggest that meat should
be given up completely
[Hermit 2] You sound just like St. Paul suggesting that it is “better to
marry than to burn” - and I regret, just as irrational. Perhaps you should
eat more meat. And I think you are going to have to explain the rights of
animals again? Think about the problem of how a cultivated resource obtains
“rights.” When did they demand them, who did they demand them from, what
exactly were these alleged “rights,” and who granted them?
[Mermaid]I also followed that with a thought that organic meats are probably
less tainted with antibiotics and hormones making it a safer choice. As
usual, you snip what is relevant and what completes an actual thought which
I had verbalised here. Since you have once again displayed your dishonest
intentions, I dont think there is anything to say.
[Hermit]PS You did mention, “However, I know non-vegetarians who are good
friends and acquiantances.” I would suggest that you don’t need to worry
about it too much. With you, it appears that friendship is such a purely
temporary and disposable phenomenon that you will shortly be able to
persuade yourself that they don’t love you and that you can safely cast them
aside <grin>.
[Mermaid]Again...Personal jab. Uninvited. Irrelevant. You are getting to be
too predictable even while attempting to insult.
[Mermaid]Let me repeat once again what I told you long ago. We, as social,
dependent creatures of emotion, forgive and forget the antics of loved ones
just because we want them to remain in our lives. To complete...try to
remember the rest of what I said. There is a message in there if you do.
P.S.Your response so far has been irresponsible, impulsive, abrasive and
childish. I imagine that you are in your 'bully' mode. You had your chance
and now I am closing my ears. So, I am going to try and ignore the rest of
your future replies. As always...Have a merry fucking day.
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