From: Michelle (michelle@barrymenasherealtors.com)
Date: Thu Feb 14 2002 - 08:39:30 MST
>I'd particularly like to hear whether you accept
>the idea that actual violence can be propagated memetically through the
>media.
>
Hmm, I think perhaps yes, but not directly - more like a subconscious
culture of violent reaction - an atmosphere of violence can become what one
is accustomed to and the actions and reactions made are appropriate for that
atmosphere. It's certainly not a clean cause-effect relationship.
>If you are simply asserting that
>the herd-like behaviour exhibited by some groups (teenage fashions or
anyone
>who read celebrity magazines being a case in point) can be alarmingly
>UTistic, then I doubt we have any disagreement. However, I suspect you're
>saying something rather more contentious than that.
I think we agree a bit more than I sounded like, as I tend to be a tad
dramatic. I don't think consumers are "slack jawed imbeciles", but here in
America we're on the cutting edge of BLAND CONFORMITY. Perhaps it's just
the multiple showings daily of the Jerry Springer show that send me into
such moods...
>historically, people have always been inclined to materialism if they have
>had the resources for it - the only countervailing memeplexes I can think
of
>would be socialism and religion, both of which produce mindsets that are
>markedly more narrow and conformist than anything produced by consumerism.
Just to clarify, I endorse materialism 100%. What I worry about is the
people for whom the goodies are not enjoyed as goods but purely as status
symbols. I think it's _that_ culture that leads people to be so easily led
by marketing. I know people who have Porsches that don't drive them. They
don't LIKE driving them. They have them for the status. In their driveway.
(Is that part of your definition of materialism, though? I hope I'm at
least sharing your definition. )
>:-) Idealism that exists without reference to pragmatism is a dangerous
>property indeed - Marx's desire 'to elevate humanity from this pettiness'
>caused the death of thousands and consigned millions more to penury.
>Idealism that commences from the proposition that human behaviour must be
>mangled to fit in with a set of preconceived ideas is not something that
can
>truly be said to deserve the name. You have to remember that people are
told
>from birth onwards that materialism is a terrible, terrible thing; I view
it
>as being very positive that they happily ignore all such exercises in hand
>wringing.
You are right, and I would never even consider that such a forced shift
would gain humanity anything. What I hope for is a time when people are
internally motivated. Such change would, yes, come from a successful meme
taking hold, perhaps the memetics meme - a deep awareness of what exactly is
going around and how it spreads, so that people could be on guard and picky.
>I could as easily turn the question around though - it seems to me that
>you're the one with the dismal view of matters, given that you seem to
>believe everyone but you to be a mindless automata jerking on a string
(a'la
>behaviourism and operant conditioning). I simply think that as far as
>advertising is concerned, people simply select which memes are of most
>advantage to them out of a free market.
Both of our views could be considered dismal, depending on the observer, I
think. What encourages me is that it's _not_ just me - I'm sorry to have
given the impression that I think self-motivation is that rare. I see it in
about 20% of the people I meet. But, of the rest of the spectrum, I'd say
the 20% at the other end could be said to have never had an original thought
in their lives. They parrot what's told to them - by their parents, their
president, their teachers and their televisions. I would agree with you,
though, that the number of influences is pulling people into comparing
competing memes more than ever before, and choosing the ones that work. So
I'd say yes, we are more individualistic at this point in history, but I'd
also say we have a long way to go.
>> PS- Even new-age self-help books have _a few_ nuggets of truth in
>> them.
>
>On the principle of an infinite number of monkeys in a room writing Hamlet,
>I'm sure they do.
I must say I expected that! ;)
>>Do you always throw out the baby with the bathwater?
>
>No, I usually prefer to throw the baby out and keep the bathwater. Nasty,
>unpleasant noisy things, babies.
That too...
And thanks for this chat, I'm enjoying it very much!
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